By Dr. James Reese, Faculty Member, Practicum Coordinator & Community Relations, Sports Management and Esports,
Dr. Brittany Jacobs, Department Chair, Sports Management and Esports
and Kerrilyn Curtin, Director of Research, LPGA
In this Voices in the Field episode, hosts Dr. Jim Reese and Dr. Brittany Jacobs welcome Kerrilyn Curtin, Director of Research at the LPGA and a member of the Sports Management Program advisory council. Kerrilyn walks through her career path from early experiences at York College (and an unexpected first research opportunity handing out surveys), to a decade at Madison Square Garden, a stint at NBC Universal and a startup research firm, and ultimately eight years at the LPGA.
She explains why she calls research the “what if” department. Her team’s job is to make the organization smarter by connecting fan insights to decision-making across social, TV viewership, sponsorship, website analytics, and now ticketing – after the LPGA brought ticketing in-house as part of a broader data acquisition strategy.
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Read the Transcript:
Jim Reese: Hi, everyone. Welcome to our Voices in the Field podcast series brought to you by the APUS Sports Management Program. My name is Jim Reese and along with my remarkable partner, Dr. Brittany Jacobs, will be your co-host for today’s podcast. Good morning, Britt.
Brittany Jacobs: Good morning. How are you?
Jim Reese: Doing great and excited to have Kerrilyn with us, a member of our advisory council for our program. Welcome, Kerrilyn. Excited about where you are now in your role with the Director of Research for the LPGA. And we’re excited to talk to you about your job and how that may apply to how our students may find that interesting and may be apply to their possible career path. So, we’re excited to have you.
Kerrilyn Curtin: I’m excited to be here. Love this stuff.
Jim Reese: All right. Well, let’s get started then. I guess the first question that we usually, just give us a little bit of background please about your education, work experience, and some of your responsibilities at the LPGA.
Kerrilyn Curtin: Sure. So, as we mentioned, I graduated York College, which is where we met on a panel. I was a sport management major, marketing major there, graduated in 2023. Then, went to Cortland thanks to you and got my master’s degree in sports business because you convinced me that I should do it and would benefit from it, and I absolutely did. So, I have my master’s from there.
Right out of the gate, I internshipped at Madison Square Garden, which for me, was a dream of mine. I wanted to work there since I was a little girl. First game when I was about 11, I guess, was my first New York Knicks game. And my dad will still tell you to this day that he remembers me telling him that I was going to work there, which is why I went into sport management initially, because if you want to work at the world’s most famous arena, you better learn sports.
So, worked there for 10 years out of college, worked my way up the ranks there. Most amazing, to this day, I still look back on that, and everything I learned there is still being practiced today. My mentor was a huge part of my life. I actually just got off the phone call with one of my interns, believe it or not, from 20 years ago. He’s over at ESPN, so I was able to reconnect with him because he’s now doing research there.
From there, went to NBC Universal. So, spent about a year at NBC Universal doing research for actually the Telemundo stations. They had just purchased the World Cup back then. So, was helping do research around the World Cup. And then, went to a startup research firm out of San Francisco for a few years, which was so much fun working for a startup and living in that world is very different than corporate America, I would say.
But something that I think if I had another opportunity to go do, I would definitely go do their small knit, close-knit little family that you work with and you grind. But we actually had to close our doors and that’s what brought me here at the LPGA, and I’ve been here for eight years since.
I think when Symphony closed down, which was the startup, I took a step back and said, “What do you want to do with your life? What do you want to do with your career?” And it always came back to sports. It always came back to being in sports full time.
That’s where my passion is. That’s what I love doing. Researching fans is one of the coolest things you could possibly do. The passion behind it is just what drives me every day. So, getting back into sports full time was my goal and that’s where I’ve been, LPGA for eight years.
My role here over the years has changed a little bit. It’s definitely grown. I call my department the “what if” department.
Our job is to make everyone else in the organization smarter, help them make their decisions easier, help them get more revenue, help them get more fans. So, we take care of everything from social analytics, to TV viewership analytics, to sponsorship analytics, website analytics, and just overall, who is our fan and how do we get more of them and how do we keep them engaged.
More recently, we actually we’re on a big data acquisition strategy right now. And with that, we brought ticketing in-house to the LPGA and I’ve inherited that. That is definitely something that I was not expecting here. I have learned so much in the last two years. So, we did bring ticketing in-house, and now I oversee that portion of the organization as well.
Jim Reese: That’s awesome. Just a quick follow-up question before I turn it over to Britt for a question. Is there anything recently in the data that you found that was surprising about your target market?
Kerrilyn Curtin: Absolutely. I think one of the biggest surprises that I found very quickly in that I started, and it’s also shocking when you talk to other people is our current demographic. People assume women’s sports have a very large female following. We actually don’t. We have a very large male following, an older male demographic.
And you might want to say that that’s because of the sport we are, but I think it’s sports in general. And I also think women’s sports, we tend to find a lot of male viewers and a lot of male attendees because they find that they can relate better to the play. So, I think that’s the one thing that’s very eye-opening for a lot of people is they’re like, “Really? Mostly men?” I’m like, “Yeah, mostly men.”
Jim Reese: I say that same thing about women’s basketball because I think women’s basketball is played much better. It’s just more of, I’m an old school fundamentalist-type basketball person, not this one-on-one NBA stuff that they do. So, I love watching women’s basketball. All right, I’ll be quiet now and turn it over to Britt. Britt, you’re up.
Brittany Jacobs: Absolutely. So, when you talk about this, when you find these insights, how do you apply that within the LPGA? So, you found out that you’ve got this demographic of older male fans and perhaps there is a need for younger female fans, or what do you do with that data?
Kerrilyn Curtin: So, I think the first thing we do, it’s twofold. The first thing we use that male data to figure out how do we attract the right partners, right? Who’s looking to reach that type of demographic? But at the same time, we need to grow our younger fans. So, I think it’s tapping into this, it’s not that we don’t have younger fans and we don’t have female fans, it’s just that it’s a little bit smaller of a piece of pie.
So, we do a lot of work around those younger fans and those female fans to find out why they’re engaging with us, how they’re engaging with us. Is it different than the older male fan? And it is. You’ll see more digital. You also see, I think with sports, one of the most amazing things that I enjoy the most about researching with sports is that initial connection.
Everyone is a fan of sports. If you look back and do focus groups and talk to anyone, I’m sure if I ask both of you, what is your favorite sport and what’s the first memory, a lot of times it’s some connection with a family member, a relative, a close friend.
And when you talk to our female athletes, that’s a lot of where it started. And it’s interesting because a lot of it does start with a father figure of some sort, taking them out on the golf course.
So, there is still that tie-in to the male. So, the way we use the data is really to figure out where to market to them, how to get them, and what is their value because a female fan might have a different value to a partner or a sponsor than a male fan does.
Brittany Jacobs: That’s incredible. I love that data is driving all of that decision making and it’s definitely progressed so much in the last decade or 20 years, and you can probably speak to that. Where do you see data going in the future?
Kerrilyn Curtin: Like you said, as we figured out that I’ve been in this industry for a very long time, and from my perspective, it has changed, to your point, Brittany, so much. When I first started at Madison Square Garden and we built even just our database with ticket purchasers, we had maybe two data points, three data points at most, connected to the individual person. Now, I mean, we can follow you everywhere you go.
We have single sign-on on websites and we can connect it back to ticket purchasers. I can connect it back to merch. I can know that you had a hot dog and you had three Cokes and two beers, and I think that’s where data is currently.
And I think it’s only where it’s going to go even more in the future is people want that personal connection and the only way you can get that personal connection is with data and connecting the dots. And to see where it started and where it’s gone in the last 20 years is absolutely remarkable.
I think one of the things, there’s a few of us that are still in this industry and we connect all the time, we call ourselves the dinosaurs because we remember when it was very basic and very 20% of fans like a soda. And it’s like, “Well, no, 20% of fans like the soda, but if you give them also a Coke, they’re going to buy more,” and it’s just all this attribution and modeling. And sometimes I take a step back, I’m like, “I think we’re overcomplicating it, guys.”
It’s still sports at the end of the day and people are so passionate about it that they’re going to go all out for it, and I don’t think we need to think about it so in-depth because I do feel sometimes it’s getting overcomplicated and it doesn’t have to, but to see where it’s gone is unbelievable. But I think where it’s going to go in the future is just being able to collect more data.
I was in a meeting with our ticketing partner and that’s what the whole conversation was about. How can we help you connect the dots even more? You want to know how long they viewed, where they viewed, it’s not just how long they stayed on, but did they do it on their phone? Did they do it on a PC? Did they do it at a bar? Did they do it at home? And that’s all data points that I think everyone’s trying to attach onto.
I always tell people here internally with the data acquisition we’re going through, I’m like, “Have you bought anything in the last 24 hours online?” Whether it be an airplane ticket, your favorite sweater from Aerie, whatever it may be, I guarantee that “thank you” email was thought out in a way based on your past purchase.
It wasn’t just someone sending it out. And you probably ended up buying more because it was personalized to you based on your habits. So, it only helps increase revenue long term and everybody wants to be personal. You want that personalization.
Jim Reese: Kerrilyn, back, I’m trying to remember the year, but barcodes changed everything and because I remember and talk about dinosaurs, I remember the days when we used to have to write duplicate tickets by hand. We used to have 80,000 people show up at the old Mile High Stadium with 75,000 seats because of that. As soon as barcodes were instituted, the lineup, the duplicate ticket window disappeared because they couldn’t scam the system anymore.
But now we’ve got rolling barcodes. So, your barcode changes every five seconds, and a new one will come up and just people, they figure out how to work the system. And as administrators, you have to constantly find new ways to stop that from happening. But I remember, I have a friend that works at, my gosh, it’s Kroger here in the area.
And long story short, I said, “Do you do anything with this rewards card, because you always use that to save money?” He goes, “Jim, I know how much milk you buy. I know what time of the day you buy it. I know.” And I was like, I was really creeped out, but that’s the world we live in now.
We were talking about the students and encouraging them to volunteer for everything they possibly can because you never know what door can open. So, my question for you is, on your career path so far, have you had a door open that you didn’t expect and went on a different path than you thought you would?
Kerrilyn Curtin: To be completely honest, that’s how my whole career started. Like I said, I may have wanted to work at Madison Square Garden, but I wanted to get into sales or marketing or something like that. And when I was at York, Professor Dr. Robinson, Matthew Robinson, who I think is at Delaware still, I was the work study there.
And I was like, “Yeah, sure, I’ll be the work study. I get a couple extra bucks. Sure.” And he, at one point said to me, “Hey, Kerrilyn,” he’s like, “I do this side thing. I go to University of Maryland. I hand out paper surveys. Would you be willing to take the ride down with me and at halftime hand these things out?”
I had, one, free game at the University of Maryland – basketball back in the day when they were really good, sign me up. Two, okay, why not? And I went and I did it not knowing, I could have said no. If I said no to that and volunteering, because he did say it’s not going to be part of the work study, it’s like a separate thing, I would not be in research if I really think about it.
And I say that because I handed them out, I came in, put it in SPSS for him and really had nothing else to do with it. But when the time came for an internship, I filled my resume with the work studies that I had done at York, but I also had put this on there. And I had said that I had gone down and handed out surveys and put it in SPSS.
And I remember sitting in HR and interviewing for this and she looked at my resume and said, “Oh, you do research?” And I went, “Yeah, totally. Sure do.” “Tell me more about this thing you did at University of Maryland.” And I did. And she’s like, “Do you know we have a whole research department here?” I had no idea. I wanted to do sales. I wanted to do marketing. She’s like, “I think you should meet Lois Friedman.” And I did. And next thing you know, it’s my entire career.
So, if I didn’t volunteer for that, if he didn’t offer it up and I, for whatever reason, was too lazy to get up and go to the game as a college student, I think I would’ve had a very different career path. So, in a way, volunteering for something and jumping in, made me who I am.
Jim Reese: What a great story to share with students. I can’t think of a better way to emphasize how important that is. The same thing happened to me when I had done some ticketing at Georgia Southern, very little, but I had that on my resume when I sent my resume to the Broncos and that’s why I ended up getting the job there. So, we can’t stress that enough. So, thanks for sharing that.
Kerrilyn Curtin: No, and you just never know who you’re going to meet too. I think that’s another thing. It might have been plenty of places in those situations too, where you go somewhere and you shake a hand of someone and all of a sudden you know you met your next boss and you don’t even realize it.
Brittany Jacobs: Absolutely. That couldn’t be more true. I want to go back real quick to something you said about statistics and research. You were dipping your foot into this area. How did you gain the skillset that you needed to support your knowledge in sport management when you transferred into this sport research area?
Kerrilyn Curtin: So, I ended up doing that internship. I said, “Sign me up. It gets me on the door at Madison Square Garden, perfect.” And I ended up loving every second of that summer. I learned so much from the head of the department. I learned part of the business that I didn’t really know exists. Sure, I took a marketing class, but you touch on it for a little bit. So, I think that summer is really what turned me onto it.
And then, I went back to York and looked up the classes and saw that there was a market research class. It wasn’t part of the sport management program. I don’t know if it is now, but back in the day it was not. And I thought, “Well, if I enjoyed it that much, maybe I should take a class.”
So, I ended up taking that as an elective, I guess it must have been my senior year. And again, fell in love with it and loved it even more and just continued to keep in touch with my boss at the garden.
And every moment I could get on a break or on anything like that, when she said, “Stop it and say hi when you come home for Christmas break,” I said, “Okay.” And I got on the train and I stopped in and said hi and kept in touch with the analysts there and just continued to ask them what they were working on and continued to have those conversations and even just learned from that and then got hired there full time in 2004.
And at that point, just attempted to wrap my hands around anything and everything I could research-wise. And I think when my boss at the time, Lois, was having meetings and inviting us similar to what you just said, Dr. Reese, I went and I made sure to meet the vendors and to ask questions.
Brittany Jacobs: That’s incredible. There’s two things that I want to highlight for our students there that you’re really echoing. First is be proactive about the things that you’re interested in, right? Take the initiative, take extra classes, volunteer, do all of the research on your own.
Those things are important and then build those relationships. It’s the thank-you cards. It’s the stopping in and saying hi. It’s the staying on somebody’s radar so that they remember who you are the next time that they have a job to fill or have someone to recommend.
Kerrilyn Curtin: Absolutely. I mean, that’s essentially the Garden. And she said to me, she’s like, “I can’t hire anyone right now. I can’t promise you when I can hire someone. It could be tomorrow, it could be two years from now. Right now, we’re at capacity, but stay in touch.”
And sure enough, as soon as one of the analysts resigned, she literally called me within 24 hours and said, “Hey, Steve just resigned. We’re going to post this job. This is how it works. If you want it, it’s yours, but you got to go through the process.” So again, believe if I didn’t stay top of mind with her, there were plenty of interns that had come through after me.
Brittany Jacobs: That’s a great point. Really building those relationships is so important and it’s amazing to see how that’s impacted your career. Dr. Reese and I talk a lot about how when you send in your resume and you don’t have any connections within an organization, it’s going to be in a stack of 100, 200, 300, 500 resumes and really building that network helps to at least put that resume at the top of the stack. You still have to do the work, you still have to have the skills, but getting that resume seen is really important.
Kerrilyn Curtin: It is important. Even the LPGA job, I found….Actually, all my jobs, now that I’m playing through my head, all happens because of a, it may not have been a direct connection, but it was the whole three-degree separation type of mentality. I mean, my job at NBC, a woman that left Madison Square Garden probably about six months before me called and said, “Hey, they’re looking for someone. I think you’d be great. Come have a conversation.”
The same thing with my Symphony Advanced Media job. It was actually someone that reported to me. So, someone on my team, an employee of myself, they were looking for a new supervisor and she apparently really liked me and said, “Hey, I loved my old boss at the Garden. She’d be awesome.” And got that job.
The LPGA was probably more separation. I had seen it posted from a woman that was actually my account manager at a vendor that I had at Madison Square Garden from years prior. And I said, “Hey, I saw you posted this for a friend. Who’s the friend? Do you know anything about this?” And she said, “I don’t know too much about it. I just know her who has nothing to do with the job itself.” And then, that’s how I got an interview.
Brittany Jacobs: It really is that three degrees of separation in sport. It’s a small world. And I think that sometimes you don’t really realize it until you’re in the industry that everybody knows everybody, so you’ve got to make good impressions along the way.
Kerrilyn Curtin: When I came back to sports full-time at the LPGA, I very quickly realized exactly that. Within the first month, I was running into colleagues that worked at a team that’s now at a league and then a vendor that’s now at a brand, and I was like, “Whoa, the sports industry is so small.” But that’s what makes it so awesome at the same time.
Brittany Jacobs: It really is. You do develop those relationships and they do. They follow you from team, to league, to brand, to wherever it might be. Jim, over to you for the next question.
Jim Reese: Well, thank you. You just triggered something that Kerrilyn talking about research and applying that information to the sport. In our marketing class, we always talk about activation, and I shared some stories, activation stories. I remember I was working for, was it Goody’s Headache Powder at a NASCAR race.
I can’t think of a better place to give aspirin out than a NASCAR race with all the fumes and everything. But we drove around a little Goody’s golf cart handing samples out. And there are like a hundred other examples, but what do you folks do? What do you see your sponsors do from the standpoint of activation?
Kerrilyn Curtin: Let’s think. There’s a lot of different ways, especially in golf, it’s really interesting. I think that was one thing for me being in what I would call a standard stick and ball stadium type of sport for so long and then coming over to golf, it is very different.
The activation spaces are, you could do essentially anything, if you think about it, right? We’re outside. We have, I mean, granted, courses, there’s certain things you can do. I think a lot of the activation is getting the product in hand. And then, at the same time though, it’s that data collection.
So, what is that relationship where if we’re handing out, I’m trying to think of something interesting and I can’t, Del’s Lemonade is a great one. They sponsor one of our partners up in Boston area, and they do a great activation where you get a free lemonade with purchase of a ticket and we have to scan it, but guess what?
They’re getting that data to market to them. If you just purchase a ticket and got a free lemonade, well, then you must like lemonade. So, maybe there’s more customers for them in the golf world than they ever had before.
So, I think when it comes to activations, that’s the big thing is right now it can’t be just one-sided anymore. It’s a double-sided benefit to partners and it’s all about, and then taking it to that next step of is there any conversion, which can get tricky because they don’t want to share their data with me necessarily, and doing that one-to-one correlation is extremely hard, but there’s definitely ways around it.
But I think those are the two big things that I’m seeing right now on activation, it’s how do we exchange data and how do we both mutually benefit from this activation and this sponsorship?
Jim Reese: That’s a great point about sharing information because a lot of folks, they do not want to do that because they never know where that data’s going to go then or a competitor could get it or something like that.
We’ll be right back with our special guest, Kerrilyn Curtin.
Jim Reese: Thanks for staying with us. We’re back with today’s guest, Kerrilyn Curtin. Let’s get back to the discussion.
Brittany Jacobs: I wanted to ask about the data privacy. Do you see any pushback with that from fans about them not wanting to give out their data and how do you manage that?
Kerrilyn Curtin: Yeah, I would say… So, when we went over to digital ticketing, because to your, Dr. Reese, it amazed me what some of our tournaments do, and when we went over and created this ticketing initiative, we went digital and everyone’s like, “Oh, no one’s ever going to sign up for tickets.” I’m like, “Do you go on an airplane?” “Yeah, it’s probably digital.” So, I think you still get a little pushback from time to time, but I feel like people are so used to it now that it’s much easier, but you do get pushback.
I think the big thing is all the privacy policies around essentially when it is time to share the data. Like you have to get a normal….you have to get a third party involved. We can’t just send it through to you. So, I think that’s where it gets complicated, is being able to actually do that sharing of data is when like us with a partner or even us with a tournament.
It’s like the leagues. They may push down Ticketmaster. We’re pushing down our partnership, but the goal there for us was Kroger, you can own the data, but so do we because at the end of the day, it is an LPGA fan and we want to market to them just as much as you do. So, that was interesting discussion and it was just put in our privacy policy.
A lot of things now are opt-in, which makes it a little more difficult. We send down and we’re like, put the big box in front of you and you have to uncheck it versus having to check it is a way around that, but it still gets pretty sticky. And for us being, again, not a standard team sport, we call ourselves the traveling circus.
So, we’re dealing with privacy policies all over the world. What is good in New York is not good in Colorado, which is not good in California. So, I was just on a call this morning with our legal team around opt-ins and trying to figure that out by geography because it does get very complicated.
Brittany Jacobs: I can imagine, and that’s just state to state. Like you said, I can only imagine when you start traveling all over the world.
Kerrilyn Curtin: Right now, we’re just doing ticketing in the States because it obviously is a little easier, but we are trying to figure out, we’re very big in Asia, actually bigger in Asia than we are here a lot of times in terms of viewership. When we play in Asia, our Asian players, the following that they…they’re like national heroes over there. So, we want to get our hands on that data, but obviously their privacy policies are wildly different than ours and stricter.
Brittany Jacobs: One thing that I wanted to ask about a little bit is, in addition to doing the volunteer work that you did, how did you continue to build that network as you were going through your career?
Kerrilyn Curtin: In meetings, talking to people. I think it’s also within your own walls of your organization as well. I know when I try to get new team members on my team or even an intern comes through, I always tell them, if there’s another part of the organization that you’re interested, let someone know. Let your supervisor know. I think a lot of people are a little scared because you’re like, “Oh, if I tell them that, maybe they think I don’t want to be here.”
It’s like, no, you can position it in a way that you want to learn more. You want to service the organization better. And I think that’s a lot of it too, is don’t forget about learning within your organization, the other departments, because there are networking opportunities there right in front of your face that you don’t even realize.
So, I think it’s introducing yourself to other departments, having one-on-one lunches, going to get the coffee and when you’re sitting there, getting the coffee in the morning and there’s a random person and you know who they are and it is intimidating to introduce yourself.
But I find that, for me in particular, I feel like I tend to respect that person a little bit more, that they took the time to be like, “Hey, Kerrilyn, I know you run the department and you’re probably really busy, but I was just curious, what is it that you guys are working on? I know I keep hearing research, I keep hearing data, but what is it that you guys truly do because I don’t get it.” You’re only making yourself smarter, but you’re also, at the same time, networking because I will remember that person when the time comes and I’ll see them in the hallway and say hello.
And then, within vendors, I think it’s treating them with the same respect and knowing you might be buying something from them. But I don’t know how many vendors I have between data sources and tools in my toolbox that I’m using with and negotiating with, but treating them with respect goes a really long way.
Brittany Jacobs: Jim, if you don’t have a question, I have one follow-up real quick, if that’s okay with you.
Jim Reese: Go right ahead, Britt.
Brittany Jacobs: Oh, great. You mentioned the tools that you use with these vendors. Are there certain tools that you can talk about? Are there things that students should be learning as they go through their different career progressions so that they can really make an impact in this a field?
Kerrilyn Curtin: Great question. I always tell people that research and data isn’t for everyone. First one to admit that. I don’t know how many interns are like, “It seems really cool.”
And then, they get here and they’re like, “Oh, this isn’t for me.” I’m like, “It’s okay.” But the foundation of it is so incredibly valuable to you in whether you’re going into sales, ticketing, marketing, event management, anything.
So, I think tool-wise, it’s good to understand on the surface level what a Nielsen rating is, how it comes about, and what it actually means to the partners and to the brands, I think is really important. It can get very in depth, but I think just knowing it exists and what it is.
I think knowing there’s a million different syndicated datasets out there, I’ve probably partnered over the career with every single one of them. But again, knowing the use case for them, because I feel like, again, if you’re not even in research, but you’re in marketing or event management, you know how to speak on the most basic level to the research team and the data team, which only makes you get your answer even better.
So, I would say Nielsen, I would think the understanding of what syndicated datasets are out there, would be probably the two biggest ones for me in terms of telling students to just understand the basics.
Brittany Jacobs: That’s great. Definitely having the foundation, like you said, so you can have those conversations.
Jim Reese: Kerrilyn, we were talking in the marketing class a few weeks ago about Q scores and most students have no idea that athletes have Q scores, and I think they call them N scores too when Nielsen does them, and they were really, really surprised.
And that just goes to tell you how important it is to manage your brand if you’re an athlete. And even if you’re working in the industry, the same thing is true. We might not have Q scores, but people, like you said, sometimes jobs are, they’re filled before they even get advertised.
We’ve been talking about networking this whole time and building relationships, everything in life is about building positive relationships. If you can do that, you’re going to be successful, and it doesn’t matter what field you’re in. So, speaking of Q scores, how are your athletes on that spectrum as far as being able to sign their own sponsorship deals and so forth?
Kerrilyn Curtin: To be completely transparent and honest, I would say our athletes, we’re actually going through a bit of a research project right now around that exact thing because what we’re realizing very quickly is we’re not a team sport. So, a lot of people have a favorite team. A lot of people root for a favorite team.
Heck, I’m the New York Knicks. Obviously, I know who’s on the team, but at the end of the day, I will be a Knicks fan. Whether the biggest player gets signed away or not, I will root for them. I will cheer for them. I may still follow my player that left and see where they’re going, but the Knicks are my team.
In sports that are individualized, we don’t have teams to market. What do we have? We have our players and we need to market them probably a bit better. I think getting their stories out there is really important. And I think one of the biggest eye-opening things is if you ask a group of people, name five LPGA players. It’s hard right now, unfortunately, and that says a lot.
So, to answer your question, I think that says a lot. We have to work on that. We have to get them. And our new commissioner who’s amazing, that’s our goal.
We need people to not just cheer for us, we need them to root for us. We need them to connect with our players and want to follow them on social and then tune in on Golf Channel and watch her story. Again, be attached to her as a brand, like you said, because they all are individual brands, which is an all very, very different, very different and very amazing.
Brittany Jacobs: One thing we wanted to ask you about is being a woman in the sports industry, and of course, we’ve heard stories of challenges that women face and sometimes they don’t face those challenges. So, we wanted to hear a little bit about your experiences and any advice that you might have for our women that are currently trying to get into this industry or are currently pursuing a sport management degree.
Kerrilyn Curtin: I always tell the stories of….I was a sport management major. I feel like when it was still fairly new-ish, I think I was from York, one of the first classes that graduated with that major and probably one of a handful of women, to be honest with you.
And then, I went and worked at Madison Square Garden, which I remember sitting around and I don’t think I really grasped that. I never thought of it as like, “Oh, I’m the only woman in this room or I’m the only woman in this classroom.” I just thought of it as, this is what I love to do and trying not to think of that.
I look back on it sometimes and I’m like, “Wow, I really was the only woman around that executive conference room.” And I hate to say this, but yeah, there were times where I’m like, “Did they not even know I’m here? What are they talking about?”
And again, I feel like at the time, it didn’t really grasp what was happening, but I think the biggest thing is it was intimidating. It definitely was intimidating, but I think you just prove yourself, and I think that’s what it is.
And I think once you can show your worth and show you’re just as smart and know just as much, if not more, then the guy sitting next to you, they start to realize, who cares if you’re a woman or a male. And I think it’s been interesting for me to go from being at Madison Square Garden who at the time was very male-heavy. And now, I work at a very female-heavy organization.
So, I’ve seen both sides of it, which is just very interesting, but I think that’s the biggest thing. You are there for a reason, male or female, you’re there. You got the job. You got the job for a reason and just keep being who you are and don’t back down because you’re the only female in the room.
Brittany Jacobs: That’s great to hear. I think that for anyone, particularly the young folks that are just coming into their careers, it is intimidating to be in those rooms with some of the high-profile executive leadership folks. No matter your gender, it can be intimidating. So, I think that you’re absolutely right, making sure that you know that you’re in that room for a reason is really, really important.
Kerrilyn Curtin: Yeah. And you were invited, right? At some point, I remember being asked our general manager at the network coming by and be like, “Kerrilyn, can you come into…” And I’m like, “What?”
And then, I walk in there and I’m like, “He invited me. He put me on the meeting calendar for a reason. He obviously values what I have to say and values my opinion. He wouldn’t have asked me to be here otherwise.”
Brittany Jacobs: It’s a great point. It’s a great point. And I know that we can sometimes be our worst enemies. Sometimes we get in our own heads and we start a little bit of self-doubt and do we deserve to be here, those kind of questioning, the imposter syndrome, all of that is real. So, I think it’s really important, like you said, to remember that you were invited. You have a seat at that table.
Kerrilyn Curtin: And I think there are, over the years, I’ve made a lot of friends and a lot of colleagues and a lot of people I lean on and trust for certain situations, and I think that’s important too. Actually, I haven’t been in a while, but there’s a lovely group of women that I’ve met and we call ourselves boss moms and we meet once a month and it’s all women who are in the sports industry who have kids and who are trying to balance it all.
And it’s not saying that women are the only ones that balance at all, not saying that at all, but it’s been fun to have them and to know that there are….I feel like now, I honestly don’t go to conferences anymore and be like, “Oh, there’s way more men here.” I feel like that’s going away and I think it’s absolutely, absolutely wonderful.
Brittany Jacobs: It’s great. It’s really great to see that we’re seeing more women in sport management programs and that’s leading to more women in the industry and moving up the ranks, getting to those executive leadership positions where we can then see ourselves as folks are coming through.
Kerrilyn Curtin: There’s a lot of proven case studies and research out there that a lot of the women that aren’t in those executive leadership positions were athletes. We’re high school athletes, college athletes, but have that athletic background because there is grit to that. There is some confidence that comes with that and there is a never give up attitude that comes with being an athlete. And then, you get in the sports world, you’re surrounded by that same mentality.
Jim Reese: Speaking of case studies – ah, nice segue – one of the things that Britt and I, and actually all of our faculty members tried to do is make our course assignments or discussion questions, make them applicable to the industry. And we also try to give them assignments that they can actually take, whether it’s a marketing plan or whatever that they can do something real-world to say, to maybe help them in a job when they get into the industry.
So, we would love, if you have anything on your wishlist that you would like done, I would love to, we would love in any of our classes, have our students do, whether a group or individual depends on the size of the class and then have you give your feedback to them on what they did well and what they maybe had missed. I think that would be so valuable if do you ever have anything that you’d help on?
Kerrilyn Curtin: I always have stuff, so feel free.
Jim Reese: All right. Well, I’m going to take….You may be sorry that you said that because you may be barraged with requests from our faculty.
At the end of the day, the college demographic, you guys know so much that we don’t know and use media in ways that I think everyone’s trying to figure out. And I think to be able to tap into that knowledge and expertise is invaluable to a lot of places.
Well, we’d be crazy not to take you up on that, so we definitely will. All right. Well, we are rapidly running out of time here, so our hour is almost up. Any advice that you have for students, male or female, getting ready to break into the industry that you can give them to help them transition?
Kerrilyn Curtin: Yeah. Network, network, network. I know it’s like, as a college student, I feel like that’s all I ever heard my professors say. And I remember being, “Okay.” But I really do think that is such an important thing to do. And I think the other thing is ask questions. I think knowledge is really beneficial and asking questions and getting the answers is huge.
So, if there’s something you don’t understand, I always tell interns and everyone that starts with me, I get that you might be in a big meeting and you don’t feel comfortable asking it right then and there. Jot it down and pull someone aside that you can count on or that you want to learn more from because I think the more you can ask questions to learn from, the better off you are.
So, networking and ask questions and be… I think and having an open mind that I think there’s a lot of… I think when I graduated, I envisioned, I’m either going to work at a team or a league. That’s all I got.
And it’s like there are so many other opportunities out there in sports. It’s not just team and league anymore. It’s agencies, it’s networks, it’s the brands themselves now have….They never had sport marketing arms 20 years ago and now they all do.
So, there’s so many other avenues that you can get into. And while yes, a team and league sounds absolutely wonderful, there are just as big of opportunities around the corner with so many different organizations.
Jim Reese: Thank you so much. Now, we end with this question with everyone, and I know that I may have given you some advice about grad school, but I always thought that you’d end up being a good teacher, too. Not that I’m trying to plant too much of a seed there, but what’s next for Kerrilyn? On your five-year wishlist, where would you like to be or do you have any goals set?
Kerrilyn Curtin: Well, your wish could come true. I have been trying to inch my way towards a doctorate for quite some time. I’m actually should be writing a dissertation right now at the Sports Academy. And gosh, it’s hard. Oh my gosh. I don’t know how you did it.
Jim Reese: It’s only five chapters. You just have to look at it that way.
Kerrilyn Curtin: You know and I –
Jim Reese: And once your review of lit is done, you’re golden. That’s all you got to remember.
Kerrilyn Curtin: That’s what everybody tells me. But I am the biggest procrastinator, and I hate to admit it, but life is just so busy, and it gets so crazy. And I hope to have that complete within the next….I want to actually bring that down to at least two, three years would be my main goal.
Here at the LPGA, I would love to see a lot of things through here. I would love to see a lot of our numbers go up in terms of attendance and know that research helped it.
So, those would be my two big things. Other than that, I feel like I don’t know. Will I be here? I hope too, but again, you never know what door’s going to open or who’s going to reach out or who you’re going to meet that’s going to one day say, “Hey, Kerrilyn, I think you’d be great for this role.” So, I think when it comes to that, I don’t know.
Jim Reese: There’s nothing wrong with that, actually, leaving those options open for you down the road. Britt, before we wrap up, anything else for Kerrilyn?
Brittany Jacobs: I don’t think so. It’s been a pleasure to speak with you, and I can’t thank you enough for joining us today.
Kerrilyn Curtin: No, this has been great. I appreciate it. And hopefully, hopefully, I helped at least someone figure out an answer to a question because I would not be where I am, like I said, without so many people, Dr. Reese included. So, always happy to help anyone else along the way, for sure.
Jim Reese: Well, Kerrilyn, we can’t thank you enough. And Britt, thanks for your help always. It’s always a pleasure. So, thanks to all of our guests, to our listeners, and on behalf of myself, Britt and all of our colleagues from the APUS Sports Management Program, this is Jim Reese saying so long.
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